Ep 6: Marina gets seriously sustainable

[00:00:05] Marina: There was this all or nothing dogma of, if you don't do this perfectly, you're a terrible person or you're greenwashing because you're, you're doing this, but you're not doing that. And so I think that is part of our education and part of the way we're trying to change consumer's mindset is just doing the little actions which are enough and which are good.

[00:00:25] HOST: Hi I'm Andrea Marquez -- and This is Small Business – a podcast by Amazon. This show is all about learning how to start, build, and scale a small business. By the end of this episode, I will recap everything we learn today into tangible, actionable takeaways for you to use in your small business journey. Today, I'm so glad you chose to listen -- because I think this is a super important topic: making your business environmentally friendly. There's a lot of bad news out there about the environment. But today, I want to focus on someone who started a business to make a positive contribution [00:01:00] to a cleaner, greener world. I think this is something that will be important to me -- when I eventually start my own business -- but I know that "going green" isn't always easy. It can be hard to source the right materials, there can be extra cost involved, and let's face it... a ton of research. And yet... it's something we need to do for the planet AND it's something that matters more every day, to customers. So how do you go green -- and stay afloat? Today I'll speak to sustainable transformation expert Shannon Kenny. But first -- I'm joined by Marina Tran Vu, founder of EQUO, a business that sells sustainable alternatives to single use plastics.

[00:01:48] Andrea: Marina. Thank you so much for being on This is Small Business today. I'm very excited to talk to you.

[00:01:55] Marina: Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here.

[00:01:58] Andrea: Tell me about EQUO. Tell me how [00:02:00] it got started and where you are today.

[00:02:02] Marina: I came over to Vietnam about three years ago. Um, it wasn't for the reason of starting this business, it was actually just to help out my family. I was only meant to stay for one year. And then unfortunately the pandemic happened, and I kind of got stuck in Vietnam, but I also started EQUO during that time.

And, EQUO is a sustainable brand that provides a hundred percent plastic free and compostable solutions for everyday single use plastic items. So that's just a really fancy way of saying that we make products that are sustainable out of sustainable materials, like grass, rice, coconut, sugar cane, and coffee to replace anything that's single use plastic. So something that you use once and throw away like straws or utensils or bags.

[00:02:44] Andrea: And what brought you to do something like this? What was the source of inspiration?

[00:02:50] Marina: Honestly the inspiration for all this first off was when I first came to Vietnam, um, unfortunately sounds a little bit sad, but I had no friends and I was in a foreign country. I didn't know anyone.

[00:03:00] Andrea: ...which usually happens when we move to another city, state, country etc.

[00:03:05] Marina: Exactly. Exactly. So what I did, um, to kind of occupy most of my daytime was I went to visit a lot of the different cafes and coffee shops. And Vietnam is very, very well known for that. It's one of the largest exporters of coffee in the world. And basically in every nook or cranny, you will find a coffee shop with, it could be a basement, could be a random condo way down an alley. So I went to visit those. And, uh, for the first time I saw something green in my drink and it was floating and I was like, what is this? And it turned out to be a grass straw. And so that was my first experience of a type of straw that was not made from plastic or paper. So that was kind of the first part.

And then the second part was basically a couple of months later, my nephew was born. And I realized, you know, um, that he might have a tougher time of growing up in this world than I would. I was fortunate enough to grow up in Vancouver where it's beautiful, there's tons of nature. And I wanted him to have the same sort of experience. But at the rate we're going, [00:04:00] you know, he might actually have to move to Mars to kind of live out the rest of his adult life. And I just really didn't want that to happen. So, um, that was all my other inspiration.

[00:04:10] HOST: Ok I know I'm new to this whole universe -- but that's definitely the first time I've heard a small business owner say "I started my company so my nephew wouldn't have to move to Mars." And I mean -- she's joking... but only partly. She's also kind of serious. She's motivated to create a better world for those coming along behind her -- and I just love that. So I asked Marina to walk me through how her products are made -- and the impact they have on the environment.

[00:04:39] Marina: Well, each product is quite unique in how it's made. For example, our coconut straws are actually made out of leftover materials from the coconut. So after all the water and the flesh and the shells have been extracted, sometimes you kind of get this leftover material and we add a bacteria to it, which eats away at the leftover coconut material to form a paste. So that's kind of one example.

[00:05:00] Another example is, um, the coffee straws that we have are actually made from the used coffee grounds that are gathered from different cafes and restaurants, um, and then put together a combined with another sort of, um, organic acid in order to be molded into our straws. But the common thing amongst all of our products again, is that they're a hundred percent plastic free they're compostable, and, um pretty much for all of them they're made out of materials that would otherwise end up in a landfill. So helping really to promote that circular economy.

[00:05:31] Andrea: And I'm just crazy curious, but did you have a background in this or how did you even begin?

[00:05:37] Marina: Not at all. My studies and my background came in kind of marketing and business. So I graduated from the University of British Columbia, Sauder School of Business, studying marketing. And then also, for my entire career, I worked at companies like Unilever, Bacardi, LG doing brand and marketing for them. Um, so product launches were something that I was very used to, but I think a lot of that curiosity [00:06:00] that comes with working within marketing, a lot of it comes from trying to figure out what makes the consumer tick. What makes a consumer want to purchase something or buy something? And so for me, there is that curiosity there of why, you know, I see this green thing in my drink all the way in Vietnam, but I'm not seeing everywhere else in the world.

And so that curiosity led me to kind of look into the history. Sustainable straws. And I found out that these were products that were existing for a very long time. So you're talking with decades and centuries. These are not new products, but when you take a look at the market share of, of sustainable straws, other than plastic and paper, it was less than 0.1% market share at that time. So that means that there was something that wasn't resonating. Maybe it wasn't getting enough exposure or people didn't know about it.

[00:06:46] HOST: Marina's marketing curiosity kicked into high gear. She thought -- these straws are great. The world needs less plastic and more grass straws -- they've been around for ages... so how come nobody outside Vietnam seems to use them?

[00:07:00] Marina: So that's really kinda what led me down the path of building this brand, building a brand that would be eye catching that would educate consumers on the different sustainable materials that are out there and also make sustainability fun. It was one of those things where, again, I didn't come from a sustainability background, but trying to learn about it and trying to come into that sustainability community, I did find that there were certain things such as gatekeeping around whether or not you were sustainable enough to be part of this community. And so I wanted to build a brand that was inclusive and fun versus what I had seen as my own experience, trying to start my sustainability journey.

[00:07:35] HOST: Marina spotted how that question "are you sustainable ENOUGH?" can feel accusatory and demoralizing for those who are just setting out on the sustainability journey. It can drive people away -- which is not a good outcome. So kudos to her for overcoming that and creating a product -- and a brand ethos -- that feels accessible to everyone. Buying less plastic is something in everyone's reach.

[00:08:00] Andrea: I'm going to ask a hard question, which I'm sure you probably have been asked before, but does it actually make a difference? If I, as a consumer change my use of straws to be your kind of straws?

[00:08:12] Marina: Yeah. I think that's a great question. I would equate it to something like, you know, voting within an election. Most people think that, you know, I'm just one person, it's just one vote is not going to make a difference. But when you, accumulate that altogether, it does make a difference. All these little small actions that are sustainable combined together can have a really, really big impact. And if we have everyone just thinking that, oh, I'm not going to make a difference, and everyone's just going to continue to do the same action, which will harm the environment. But if everyone, or maybe even 10% of those people start to say, you know what, I'm actually going to make it a little bit of a switch that could influence other people. And those accumulated actions and efforts can have a huge impact.

[00:08:51] HOST: It's a fair point. But another hard question I felt like I had to ask: what about the process of sourcing, packaging, and distributing these eco-friendly products? [00:09:00] I wanted to know -- how sustainable is that whole process?

[00:09:06] Marina: It's definitely a journey. The reality is that, you know, I think there's a lot of economies of scales. There's a lot of efficiencies that have come through business by non-sustainable products. One example would be for example, palletization of your products and how we ship products. You know, it might be plastic pallet or might be in a plastic box instead. And we've gotten used to those things and because we've gotten used to those things and they've been used for a very long period of time, the cost efficiencies are there. But as long as they're being truthful, I think consumers will be a little bit more receptive to the message.

[00:09:37] Andrea: And can you tell me in what ways your business, the, you know, the making of the product, is environmentally friendly?

[00:09:46] Marina: Well, I think there's a couple of things that we do that are quite different. So first off, you know, just the product itself is very, very sustainable. The packaging that we use, is either recycled packaging or recyclable. So I still promoting that kind of circular economy [00:10:00] or that reuse, and the sustainable aspect as well. And then on top of that, my team is actually fully remote. So there's kind of some of the, I would say, you know, it's a little bit of a smaller impact, but it's kind of saving some of that time and carbon emissions from traveling to go to the office. And then from there, I would say that just in our advocacy, I know it sounds a little bit weird, but advocacy and education itself is, um, sustainable in terms of its actions as well. Cause we're basically trying to get people to switch their mindsets as well as understand what else is available out there for them to adopt as a sustainable behavior.

[00:10:34] Andrea: It's really hard to change consumer behavior. It's easier to just fit into their lives how they're already operating. So what are you doing to influence your customer to not just, buy your straws or your products, right, but also to be part of that mission of sustainability and have it seep into other parts of their lives?

[00:10:54] Marina: Yeah, no great question. That’s actually the ethos of our brand and our brand is about making sustainability as easy [00:11:00] as possible. So for example, with our straws, they are all made to be single use as well. So the idea is that you would just use our straws that have a plus straw, and you're already doing better for the environment. You don't have to change your behavior. You don't have to carry it around or wash it or anything. You just use it once and you throw it away as well. But it's just made of a much better material that is a hundred percent plastic free and compostable.

On the other side, is the, the way that we're trying to get people to change their mindset, in a little bit of a different way, is the approach to the sustainability category. So we actually do take photos of our products, you know, in plastic cups. Cause sometimes people may not have, you know, a solution to a plastic cup. So we have our products like our coconut straw in a plastic cup and taking a photo of that because we really do want to emphasize that any small action helps and if you're not doing sustainability perfectly, that's still okay. So I’m really encouraging that as well.

[00:12:00] Andrea: I'm thinking about this from the perspective of our listener, of our small business owner, of our aspiring entrepreneur, who is, is maybe having this idea, but wants to make sure that, you know, the whole business aligns with this mission. What are the sacrifices that you've had to make as a small business owner, as a business, to be able to live up to this?

[00:12:21] Marina: The reality is that right now um, and, and I'll be the first to say it being sustainable is more premium, more expensive to do for any sort of business, including our own. And those costs right now, we do have to pass on to our customer with the expectation that, you know, if we're able to get a lot of people to adopt our solutions, that we'll be able to bring the entire categories sort of pricing and price point down. But, first off, just acknowledging that we're not going to be able to appeal to everyone and get all the customers that use straws right now, for example, or using, you know, forks right, now to be our customers because of our price point.

So it's really kind of admitting that [00:13:00] and then really targeting those who can adopt our solutions right now. So that's the first thing. The second thing that we've had to sacrifice as a company is a lot of time, I would say we do take a lot more time to educate, people bought our products, to get people, to try our products actually. And that's something that a lot of other probably non-sustainable businesses would have to focus on. You know, we're focusing on not just the product education, the sustainability education aspect as well.

A lot of what we do is actually trying to correct assumptions or misconceptions about sustainability or our products, or really trying to prove that we aren't greenwashing. And that can take a lot of time away again from, you know, some other things like operations or sales.

[00:13:40] HOST: Greenwashing is when a company does something on the surface that implies sustainability -- like simply putting a green label on a bottle -- but actually is not sustainable in any way. This is not what Marina is doing -- but it doesn't stop the haters from hating. By Marina's own admission -- it can be tough to step into the environmental business arena. [00:14:00] You constantly have to keep up on your research, defend your choices... fight the good fight.

[00:14:07] Marina: But it's something that we think is extremely important to do in part of telling our story. But part of also convincing consumers to switch to our products.

[00:14:16] HOST: Here's the challenge: Despite the fact that there's growing consumer demand for companies with a strong Environmental and Social Governance (or ESG) record -- there are also entrenched systems, and sometimes, higher costs associated with environmentally friendly manufacturing and distribution... It's a tough problem for a new business owner, but Marina says she's learning to tell the story of her brand in a way that breaks down resistance to it, one customer at a time. One example she gave me was around the issue of cost.

[00:14:48] Marina: And a lot of people say. This plastic straw is one 10th of a cent. Whereas your straw is like 3 cents or 5 cents. So why am I going to pay right now so much more for that [00:15:00] 50 times more, 30 times more or whatever more for this right now. And I say, okay, well, right now what you're looking at is just the physical costs, but you're not looking at the intangible costs. For example, you know, this plastic straw, Yes, it's one 10th of a cent, but guess what, it's going to break down into tiny little microplastics that are going to enter your body, enter the oceans, entering animals, and start to have a lot of health effects. Those health effects to get treated will cost something. The disposal of these microplastics and those plastics will cost something. So in essence, that, you know, one 10th of cent has now turned into 10, 20, a hundred dollars and all the costs that are associated with that. So if you think down in the future, you know, if you're a little bit more forward thinking, um, then you'll see that maybe the cost difference it isn't so clear cut as one 10th of a cent versus 5 cents. So that's how we try to tell the story and paint a picture. And so that's one way we try to overcome it, but I know a lot of other brands struggle with that too. And again, it's all about storytelling.

[00:16:00] Andrea: So how do you as a small business, get your suppliers or vendors or just partners, to want to live by that mission: the journey of figuring all of this out with you?

[00:16:11] Marina: I think when you give people numbers or show people context, they start to realize that, you know, this is a big problem that we need to address immediately. For example, you know, um, a report just came out about how microplastics were found in, uh, human lungs and, and the human blood for the first time ever and so that really, I think puts things into perspective for a lot of people. And then the second thing I think we try to do is, make sustainability something that is engaging and fun again. You know, there's a lot of doom and gloom that's always around. And like, if we don't do this, we're all going to die in the next 10 years. Or, you know, all the polar bears are gonna become extinct. When you have that narrative all the time, it can become a little bit, depressing almost as, um, as a conversation to have. So we try to kind of turn around and, you know, stick a little bit of humor into it. [00:17:00] Try to make sustainability more fun. Like, "did you know that, you know, if you have a rice straw, you can also eat it afterwards?" If you're really, really that hungry, you know, they, the coconut straws are really cool because they're kind of like this coconut sort of texture, the sugar cane straws, they smell like sugar, the coffee straws, they smell like coffee. You know, those are the types of things that I think will pique people's interest.

[00:17:22] HOST: I did NOT know that you can eat your rice straw afterwards. But now that I do know -- I'm not gonna rest until I try it. And I think that's basically Marina's whole sustainability message. No matter what kind of business you're running -- there are things you can do to inch yourself onto a sustainable path. Just start small -- and give it a try.

[00:17:44] As we have discussed on other episodes -- starting a small business is not for the faint of heart. Marina started EQUO in the midst of a global pandemic while isolated from her friends and unsure of what the market would bear when it came to eco-friendly products. She has a few words for other people just starting out.

[00:18:00] Marina: I would encourage that, you know, if you're having a rough time. Like just know that there are thousands of other small businesses having the same sort of rough time. And if you really believe in it, you really want to pursue it, you'll make it happen.

[00:18:16] HOST: MIDPOINT: You're listening to This is Small Business -- brought to you by Amazon. I'm your host Andrea Marquez. That was Marina Tran-Vu -- founder and "Chief Everything Officer" of EQUO -- spelled E-Q-U-O. You can find EQUO's eco-friendly convenience products on Amazon.

Did you know that more than half of the products sold on Amazon come from small-and-medium sized businesses? EQUO is one of the many small businesses selling on Amazon who have who have tapped into some of the tools and resources offered to help them succeed and grow. You can learn more about them in our show notes on our website ThisisSmallBusinesspodcast.com. And just a reminder that a podcast only helps if you listen to it. [00:19:00] So if you know someone who needs to hear this episode -- I hope you'll share it as soon as you get the chance. And if you have thoughts you want to share with us, send us a message to thisissmallbusiness@amazon.com.

OK, having heard Marina talk about the constant need to be educating consumers and industry partners -- it seemed like a good idea to bring out a serious eco-expert. Someone with a lot of experience helping small businesses make eco-friendly choices. So up next -- I want to introduce you to Shannon Kenny -- AKA "Mama ECO."

[00:19:34] Andrea: Shannon. Thank you so much for being with us today on This is Small Business. I'm very excited to be talking to you.

[00:19:40] Shannon: I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:19:42] Andrea: So can you give me a little bit about your background.

[00:19:45] Shannon: Yeah. So I'm originally from Trinidad and Tobago, um, born and raised there and have lived in the States for about 15 years. And, slowly merged my way from, uh, you know, a life sucking job into doing what is really important to me. [00:20:00] And that's focusing on sustainability. So initially I started focusing on the personal sustainability side of things, and then over the years, my business kind of shifted to also support businesses. And that's the way my, my consulting comes into play, where I help mostly small to medium sized businesses realize the sustainable opportunities that they have, that they may not be aware of.

[00:20:19] Andrea: It's so different to think about sustainability when you're a small business versus medium versus a large corporation. And like what your footprint means is also entirely different. Right? So as a small business owner, in what ways can I make my small business environmentally friendly?

[00:20:38] Shannon: A big sort of barrier to entry that a lot of small businesses come up against as they go, like, first of all, I'm wearing 10 million different hats, especially if it's like a solo-preneur, a very small business with a small team. So, you know, to prioritize sustainability is, is often tricky for a lot of small businesses.

And then the next thing they think of is like, well, I don't have the income per se to allocate to this. Like again, small businesses are not, you know, [00:21:00] raking in millions and millions of dollars to allocate to, to this kind of thing. So, you know, it's really about focusing on the things that are in your control and the things that are accessible to you. So, a lot of clients that I've worked with, they're a small, let's say product business, and they'll say it. "With the size of my business. I can't customize my packaging because I can't do like a minimum order of 10,000 units. That's just not in my budget." So a lot of small businesses they can only really work with what's accessible to them.

So that's the first thing is just focus on, what's accessible to you. That may be packaging that may be sourcing as many ingredients as locally as possible. You know, um, that may be thinking about like your, your carbon footprint and how much energy you consume as a business. It really kinda depends on the type of business you have.

[00:21:49] Andrea: I'd like to hear your advice on applicable tools that I could begin thinking about that maybe across the board, any small business owner could implement.

[00:22:00] Shannon: So the one very easy thing that any business can do is to make sure that your website is as eco-friendly and carbon neutral as possible. So a lot of people don't know this because it's not something that we see, but like a website has a carbon footprint. Every time we use our phone or a laptop has a carbon footprint. Right. But there's actually web hosting, companies that offset the carbon footprint of your website. And many people might not know like how it runs in the backend. When you have a website it's running all the time and what enables it to run all the time is you have these like server farms, which are basically just buildings with tons and tons of computers that are just running all the time. So first of all, you have the energy required to run those computers, to make your website run. And then those computers also generate a ton of heat to, so that also being blasted with air conditioners in order to keep them from overheating. And so that is what contributes to the carbon footprint of a website.

[00:22:50] HOST: I confess I hadn't thought all that deeply about the carbon footprint of a website before... but it makes sense. [00:23:00] Something has to keep those pixels... pixelating. But here's an example of one of those "pretty simple to change" ideas for greening your small business.

[00:23:11] Shannon: And it's really accessible for any business owner to just switch their web hosting company. It's one of those things where it's like, you just flick the switch. You don't have to ever think about it. It's if you compare the pricing, it's the same price. And in some instances, it's even cheaper. So again, looking at it from a budget perspective, it actually could be in your favor to use a green web hosting. And then one other sort of added bonus of that is they also make sure that all of the coding on the backend is optimized and very minimal. And what that means is that your website's also going to load faster and websites that load faster, get ranked higher on, on Google in terms of SEO. So it's kind of one of those things where yes, you're doing the right thing, but you could also save money and Hey, your websites might perform better. So there's lots of these little added, um, benefits and, you know, that's something that literally every business can tap into.

[00:24:00] Andrea: Wait, that's crazy. I had no idea that this was even possible. And I was about to ask you, but what is the sacrifice? Like if I do do this, I'm imagining that there has to be some downside to, to changing my website to something like this. So then now I'm asking, why doesn't everybody do this?

[00:24:20] Shannon: I think, you know, it honestly comes down to, you don't know what you don't know and, small business owners, again, they have a million different hats that they're wearing. So, you know, they're not going to be, you know, going knee deep into this kind of nuance kind of stuff. And once, you know, then at least you can try to make that decision. And, a lot of times when you signed up for a hosting company, you sign up for a year or three years or whatever it is. So, you know, if you already have an existing website, finish out your contract and when it's time for renewal, then you can make that switch. So it, it really just depends on where you are in that journey.

[00:24:50] Andrea: There's this general notion that if you do environmentally friendly things, there's sacrifices and an additional cost that comes with that. Right? So [00:25:00] what are these changes that I can make that don't translate to such a large burden or sacrifice, especially with a smaller budget as a small business?

[00:25:09] Shannon: There are always going to be certain things that cost more. For example, if you choose to create a product out of compostable materials as versus plastic, which is made from fossil fuels, it's going to be more expensive because you're opting into doing things the right way. Okay. So there will be certain things that presently will cost small because there's a lot more people who are buying and manufacturing plastic products than there are people buying and manufacturing, compostable products. So there's a supply and demand issue where once more businesses and more consumers start to shift to those more environmentally friendly products, the cost is going to come down because that's just how economics work. So if you're looking at physical things like product packaging, ingredients, that kind of thing, ethical sourcing, yes, those things are going to cost more. But there's also a lot of things that you can tap into that don't cost more. So, you know, the web hosting is just one example of that.

[00:26:00] Another thing is, sustainability isn't just about the planet, right? It's also about people. So as a business owner, it's very much within your control to make sure that you pay your employees fairly. You treat them fairly. And actually when you, when you have a very strong ethos or core set of values as a business, when you hire people, they are more invested in your company, which means you have less turnover, which it just translates to greater profits. So, you know, that's another thing as well. And then, you know, also in terms of just like sourcing locally, so I know that a lot of your, your listeners are product companies. The more that you can source as locally as possible, and sort of bring your supplier chain closer to you, then that's also going to be able to have cost benefits. Because you have more control over your supply chain.

[00:26:45] Andrea: What kind of incentives are out there for small business owners to encourage them to take environmentally friendly measures? Are there certification programs? Discounts? Things that might make business owners go "this is in my best interest?”

[00:27:00] Shannon: Okay. So here's the thing. The world is shifting towards a more sustainable mindset. We are hearing about climate change all the time. I mean, it's, it's literally coming at us from every angle. And the thing is businesses can either choose to start shifting towards sustainability now, or they can wait until there's really not much of a choice. And then they're going to have to play catch up. So it's in a business's long-term best interest to start thinking about these things now so that they can plan and they can execute in terms of that. And then also there's a lot of green certifications, or environmentally friendly certifications, like 1% For the Planet or B Corp. There’s a whole bunch of them and customers actually look for those certifications. So it also helps in terms of transparency where if a customer sees that logo or that name on your product, then they know that there's a certain level of integrity or trust that they can put behind that. And so it's almost, uh, an easier sell [00:28:00] to a consumer if they are coming across your product for the first time.

And there's, you know, option a and option B and option B is part of 1% For the Planet. I'm going to go with option B, especially if the price is the same, you know. Or even if it's nominally a little bit more. Me as a consumer I'm going to go towards that product. So there's a lot of benefits in terms of, those green certifications. I kind of have a love, hate relationship with those certifications because they're a great thing if they're used with integrity, but they can also be used to manipulate consumers and, um, to greenwash consumers, and green washing is essentially when, you know, consumers are made to believe that a product is more environmentally friendly than it actually is.

[00:28:40] HOST: Absolutely -- as we heard earlier from Marina -- the practice of greenwashing is something that really confuses consumers and muddies the waters for brands that are legitimately trying to make steps towards sustainability. Shannon says some green certifications are a good idea -- but they're definitely not for everyone -- and they can be mis-used.

[00:29:00] Shannon: It's a bittersweet kind of thing. And the next thing to think about in terms of those green certifications is a lot of them aren't financially accessible to small businesses because you do have to pay to play, essentially. Yes, you do have to do certain things in order to get that certification. But at the end of the day, for especially a very small business, it might not be accessible. So what I always tried to tell businesses is like, if you want to work towards that certification, that's great. But focus on the things that you can actually do internally right now and communicate that to your customers and be as transparent as possible so that they know what your values are.

[00:29:32] Andrea: Focusing in on the actual manufacturing of the products for a moment. What are some areas small business owners should think about in terms of going green?

[00:29:42] Shannon: One thing is to think about waste in terms of your supply chain. So again, every time you can waste less as a business, whether it's on packaging, materials, shipping, all this, this kind of stuff, um, then that translates to savings, which translates to profit. So, you know, let's take food for example, and they [00:30:00] have a certain amount of food that gets wasted along the supply chain. That's literally money going out the door. So thinking about how can we, re-engineer the supply chain to avoid that waste so that we can then again, translate that into profits. The shorter something travels the lower, the energy is required to transport it. So just trying to think as sort of locally as possible. Make your microcosm of, of a business as, as small as possible so that you have as much in control so that you're not wasting as much. And so you're not, you know, essentially spending on money on things that you really don't need to.

[00:30:33] Andrea: Shannon. Do you think it's possible in the current economy to create a thoroughly environmentally friendly business --- supply chain, manufacturing and distribution -- and NOT have it cost more than a regular business?

[00:30:48] Shannon: If you're looking at those specific parameters, no, it is going to be more expensive as we stand in the current economy.

[00:30:55] Andrea: Hard question, but I'm glad I asked it because, okay. It's good to know. [00:31:00] I mean, you're making sacrifices here, but then why would I want to do it?

[00:31:05] Shannon: Well, you know, it depends why you got into business in the first place. What I find is that with a lot of the clients that I work with, they didn't start the business to make a quick buck. They started it because whether the product or the service, it was something that was really important to them. And they're using business as a way to facilitate that value system or that mission. So it just depends what type of business owner you are. It's not for everybody. I meet people and it's very clear that it's not a priority and that's okay.

But at the end of the day, that is the direction that businesses are moving in. You see it in some of the biggest companies in the world, they are participating in it. So, you know, the question is, do you want to get on the train now or do you want to be chasing the train as it's already moving on from the station?

[00:31:50] HOST: I asked Shannon -- AKA "Mama Eco" who by the way has an eco-friendly affiliate store on Amazon -- to share any last words for small business owners wanting to [00:32:00] "up their green quotient."

[00:32:02] Shannon: If there's a small business listening right now and they're wondering what they can do, I would say the first thing to do would be to, to write down all of the different things that you run your business on. So website, you know, mailing lists, you know, do you use packaging? Write down all of the different things that you use for your business and look at each of those things and say, okay, is there anything here that would be sort of low hanging fruit to start with in terms of sustainability? You know, a simple one would be, you know, if you have business cards, you know, what are they printed on? They printed on recycled paper. So that's like an easy, you know, simple switch. And then another thing too is, is every business runs on electricity, which for the most part comes from fossil fuels. And if you have a, an energy bill in your name, uh, electric bill, you can actually, uh, depending on where you're located, switch to getting your energy source from renewable energy. So those are just kind of like a couple of little tips for people getting started that are really applicable to, to anyone. You don't have to have it all figured out. Your customers don't expect you to have it all figured out, [00:33:00] but I can guarantee that if you communicate what you're doing right to your customers, now they're going to be lifelong customers because they are invested in your mission.

[00:33:10] Andrea: I love that. Shannon. Thank you so much for being with us today. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

[00:33:16] Shannon: Thank you so much for having me happy to help.

[00:33:20] HOST: That was Shannon Kenny -- Mama Eco -- with lots of great thoughts on ways for small business owners to take steps towards going green. By the way, fun fact, Amazon has partnered with some third-party certifications to highlight products on Amazon that meet these sustainability standards. So, if you are a brand that sells on Amazon and you have relevant certifications, that can be shown to customers. I think this is pretty important considering how Marina and Shannon both talked about how customers are increasingly interested in supporting products that help preserve the natural world. You can learn more on our website thisissmallbusinespodcast.com on the show notes. So, per usual, [00:34:00] some of the key takeaways for transitioning your business to a sustainable one that I’m adding to my small business playbook after speaking to Marina and Shannon are:

• Focus on the things that you can control. You might be overwhelmed by everything we hear in the news about climate change, but that doesn’t mean that you have to implement HUGE changes to get on the sustainable train, ad Shannon called it. There are small things that you can do that are within your control.
• Small ways in which you can make your small business environmentally friendly: making your website eco-friendly, sourcing as locally as possible, seeing how you can waste less as a business, using recyclable packaging, going fully remote with your team, and remembering that sustainability is also about people so it’s paying and treating your employees fairly.
• When part of your brand mission is sustainability, advocacy and education are important because you have to go through an additional hurdle [00:35:00] of getting consumers to switch their mindsets and adopt new behavior. And to start, it might be better to target those who are able to adopt your solutions first, before expanding your reach.
• And be as transparent as possible with your customers. Be clear with your customers about which of your products, and processes are "green" and which ones may not be. Communicate your values and your mission, because that has the potential to make one-time buyers into long-term loyal customers.

[00:35:33] Bring your customers along on your journey of trying to do right by the planet. They will appreciate your authenticity -- and maybe even pay a little more to support your mission. After all -- Everyone wants to do their bit for Mother Earth. So when it comes to saving the planet -- the biggest thing for small business owners to remember is: you 're not alone.

On the next episode I will be talking to two childhood friends that started their small business out of their garage and now [00:36:00] they’ve grown their business into the first black-owned coffee company with nationally distributed products. They recently made an appearance on the Ellen DeGeneres show as part of the final season. Meanwhile, if you like what you heard, don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast so you can stay up to date with new episodes, let us know what you think by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or email us at (thisissmallbusiness@amazon.com) with episode ideas, and tell your friends about us too!

Until next time – This is Small Business, I'm your host Andrea Marquez -- Hasta luego -- and thanks for listening!

CREDITS: This is Small Business is brought to you by Amazon, with technical and story production by JAR Audio.

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